Creator Interview:
Frankiesmileshow on LOOK OUTSIDE, PART TWO!
Written by Jonathan Wojcik
I planned on sort of "bookending" the Halloween season with this followup to the first interview, but for the first time ever, my "Halloween season" has now extended well into the New Year.
JW:
okay: favorite party member/your own ideal party and why?
okay: favorite party member/your own ideal party and why?
FRANKIE:
I think mechanically, my favorite now is Sophie, with how she gets her abilities at random every day and as you explore by finding special marbles. Feels very different from the others. I also quite like how Rat has grown in the recent patches, though I wish I had done more of my ideas I had for it. My ideal party is probably Sam, Rat, Hellen and Sophie.
I think mechanically, my favorite now is Sophie, with how she gets her abilities at random every day and as you explore by finding special marbles. Feels very different from the others. I also quite like how Rat has grown in the recent patches, though I wish I had done more of my ideas I had for it. My ideal party is probably Sam, Rat, Hellen and Sophie.
JW:
Scariest monster, to you personally?
Scariest monster, to you personally?
FRANKIE:
On a pure design basis, if it were in real life - probably David, the spider searching for the lost kids. I have a bit of arachnophobia, I imagine seeing David in real life would give me a hell of a panic attack.
On a pure design basis, if it were in real life - probably David, the spider searching for the lost kids. I have a bit of arachnophobia, I imagine seeing David in real life would give me a hell of a panic attack.
JW:
How about the cutest???
How about the cutest???
FRANKIE:
I pulled all the stops to make Pierre into the cutest little guy imaginable, but he doesn't look particularly monstrous when you first talk to him. For more of an actual monster, -horrifying body horror aside - I think there is something very cute about Auguste, the guy made out of earwigs.
I pulled all the stops to make Pierre into the cutest little guy imaginable, but he doesn't look particularly monstrous when you first talk to him. For more of an actual monster, -horrifying body horror aside - I think there is something very cute about Auguste, the guy made out of earwigs.
JW:
What do you consider the worst fate of any character who Looked Outside? Did any of your own designs in the final game make you especially squeamish?
What do you consider the worst fate of any character who Looked Outside? Did any of your own designs in the final game make you especially squeamish?
FRANKIE:
Of those that looked outside, I think Jeanne's fate is particularly awful, especially if you don't help her. There is a number of fates worse than death in look outside, and its unclear for many of those characters if they can still die at all. A lot of Eternal Torment going around, its not a good time. Out of all of this, what makes me personally most squeamish is probably the the man turning into a living hive, but I dont usually feel squeamish about something that I drew myself, its a bit hard to say. Maybe this isnt the case for everybody, but when I make something It doesn't affect me much. I just think about its construction and how it fits in the rest of the game, it becomes too academic or abstract to truly "get to me"
Of those that looked outside, I think Jeanne's fate is particularly awful, especially if you don't help her. There is a number of fates worse than death in look outside, and its unclear for many of those characters if they can still die at all. A lot of Eternal Torment going around, its not a good time. Out of all of this, what makes me personally most squeamish is probably the the man turning into a living hive, but I dont usually feel squeamish about something that I drew myself, its a bit hard to say. Maybe this isnt the case for everybody, but when I make something It doesn't affect me much. I just think about its construction and how it fits in the rest of the game, it becomes too academic or abstract to truly "get to me"
JW:
Was there a challenge balancing lighter and darker elements, or did you just sort of play it by ear? Any ideas ever feel like they were getting too silly?
Was there a challenge balancing lighter and darker elements, or did you just sort of play it by ear? Any ideas ever feel like they were getting too silly?
FRANKIE:
It was a bit of a difficult balance to strike. I wanted the game to have this progression, where it starts out feeling a bit more like a zombie story, with things feeling grotesque but mostly still like a weird "infection" - and then as the game progresses, I wanted it to turn more absurd, fantastical. I wanted the player to think at first that maybe the world might go back to normal someday, but as you go deeper and deeper into the building, you realize there is no going back, as the things you encounter get more and more unreal, like a shift from horror to science fiction and then even fantasy.
In my mind this was all part of the build up to the moment you finally step out onto the roof, and witness just how truly unrecognizable the world has become. The world got fucked so bad that it changed genres. This kind of shift wont be to everyone's' tastes, any genre or tone shift will leave some people behind, its inevitable, but I think that it generally worked.
The game has a pretty wide range of tone, to my mind it was more about pacing out the tone shifts than about a limit of how silly things could get. I think the frozen apartment is probably the biggest tone misstep in the game, not because it's too silly, but because you can unlock it at any time, even on the first day. If I remade the game, I would set it up so you can only explore it at least after you've unlocked the basement.
It was a bit of a difficult balance to strike. I wanted the game to have this progression, where it starts out feeling a bit more like a zombie story, with things feeling grotesque but mostly still like a weird "infection" - and then as the game progresses, I wanted it to turn more absurd, fantastical. I wanted the player to think at first that maybe the world might go back to normal someday, but as you go deeper and deeper into the building, you realize there is no going back, as the things you encounter get more and more unreal, like a shift from horror to science fiction and then even fantasy.
In my mind this was all part of the build up to the moment you finally step out onto the roof, and witness just how truly unrecognizable the world has become. The world got fucked so bad that it changed genres. This kind of shift wont be to everyone's' tastes, any genre or tone shift will leave some people behind, its inevitable, but I think that it generally worked.
The game has a pretty wide range of tone, to my mind it was more about pacing out the tone shifts than about a limit of how silly things could get. I think the frozen apartment is probably the biggest tone misstep in the game, not because it's too silly, but because you can unlock it at any time, even on the first day. If I remade the game, I would set it up so you can only explore it at least after you've unlocked the basement.
JW:
How about the opposite? Did you ever feel like a concept or visual was going too far, getting too nasty or unpleasant? Something you decided to dial back a bit?
How about the opposite? Did you ever feel like a concept or visual was going too far, getting too nasty or unpleasant? Something you decided to dial back a bit?
FRANKIE:
Can't really think of anything we dialed back really. The closest thing to this that I can think of, is the new events in the game that can happen between Xaria and the rat. Initially things got very sour between them and never really resolved past that. Xaria hurts the rat, and the player was left with no outlet to react to this other than either ignoring this happened, or kicking Xaria and Monty out of their home, which a lot of players did.
The recent update added a few different ways this can resolve now. We didn't want to pull back from Xaria's caustic personality too much, so we didnt really change the existing events - we just made things progress past this, and gave the player some options. Similarly we added more ways the conflict between the rat and Joel progresses, after the rat destroys Joel's dear teddy bear. Again, we didnt want to remove the sting of the initial event, we just wanted to add resolutions.
Can't really think of anything we dialed back really. The closest thing to this that I can think of, is the new events in the game that can happen between Xaria and the rat. Initially things got very sour between them and never really resolved past that. Xaria hurts the rat, and the player was left with no outlet to react to this other than either ignoring this happened, or kicking Xaria and Monty out of their home, which a lot of players did.
The recent update added a few different ways this can resolve now. We didn't want to pull back from Xaria's caustic personality too much, so we didnt really change the existing events - we just made things progress past this, and gave the player some options. Similarly we added more ways the conflict between the rat and Joel progresses, after the rat destroys Joel's dear teddy bear. Again, we didnt want to remove the sting of the initial event, we just wanted to add resolutions.
JW:
Have you wondered what would happen to yourself if you Looked Outside?
Have you wondered what would happen to yourself if you Looked Outside?
FRANKIE:
I joked at one point that - people like to believe theyd become something cool or badass or tragic and ironic in some poetic way, but I would probably undergo a horrifying metamorphosis into a Dead Guy, or maybe a were-dead guy that dies on the next full moon. Maybe a horrible chimera or centaur-like monster that is part regular guy part dead guy. Upper body of a regular guy but, below the waist, an entire other guy (family guy dead pose).
But for becoming-some-tragic-horrifying-embodiment-of-your-past-self-as-eternal-torment kinda thing, id probably fuse to my computer and become some growing mass of flesh-and-machine, and continue making video games but slowly lose grasp on reality so the games over time become nonsensical, and you can trace the slow decline of my mind through them, eventually they devolve to just noise and screaming.
I joked at one point that - people like to believe theyd become something cool or badass or tragic and ironic in some poetic way, but I would probably undergo a horrifying metamorphosis into a Dead Guy, or maybe a were-dead guy that dies on the next full moon. Maybe a horrible chimera or centaur-like monster that is part regular guy part dead guy. Upper body of a regular guy but, below the waist, an entire other guy (family guy dead pose).
But for becoming-some-tragic-horrifying-embodiment-of-your-past-self-as-eternal-torment kinda thing, id probably fuse to my computer and become some growing mass of flesh-and-machine, and continue making video games but slowly lose grasp on reality so the games over time become nonsensical, and you can trace the slow decline of my mind through them, eventually they devolve to just noise and screaming.
JW:
Getting into a more serious development question, where did the concept overall "come from?" What was the first thought that became Look Outside?
Getting into a more serious development question, where did the concept overall "come from?" What was the first thought that became Look Outside?
FRANKIE:
It came from a lot of places. At first, this was for a game jam, and I was pulling bits from an old project I made years ago with my friend LandsharkRawr - Tenement Hell - Though this game was never really a proper game, more of a prototype. The idea was a procedurally generated dungeon crawler where you go around your apartment building while some apocalyptic event is underway outside, and things begin to unravel. Idea was to have the game begin mostly as a kind of survival thing and progressively turn into a dungeon crawl as the halls of the apartment become more warped and hostile, and populated with increasingly horrible monsters. I dont recommend playing it though, other than maybe a quick peek - in the prototype nothing happens really, you just explore a mostly empty apartment building, there are very few monsters and nothing really to do. Look Outside ended up like giving this idea a second go, but with a simpler execution.
Another source of inspiration were various other games, like my main project Malison The Cursed City, a fantasy CRPG I set aside to work on Look Outside, which itself is inspired by the famicom game Sweet Home. The project also started with a lot of inspiration from Lone Survivor, an excellent indie survival horror game. Look Outside at first put more emphasis on maintaining/managing your home and your survival stats, and a lot of that had Lone Survivor vibes, but over time the survival mechanics took more of a back seat to the exploration aspect. I think thats' it for my answers!
It came from a lot of places. At first, this was for a game jam, and I was pulling bits from an old project I made years ago with my friend LandsharkRawr - Tenement Hell - Though this game was never really a proper game, more of a prototype. The idea was a procedurally generated dungeon crawler where you go around your apartment building while some apocalyptic event is underway outside, and things begin to unravel. Idea was to have the game begin mostly as a kind of survival thing and progressively turn into a dungeon crawl as the halls of the apartment become more warped and hostile, and populated with increasingly horrible monsters. I dont recommend playing it though, other than maybe a quick peek - in the prototype nothing happens really, you just explore a mostly empty apartment building, there are very few monsters and nothing really to do. Look Outside ended up like giving this idea a second go, but with a simpler execution.
Another source of inspiration were various other games, like my main project Malison The Cursed City, a fantasy CRPG I set aside to work on Look Outside, which itself is inspired by the famicom game Sweet Home. The project also started with a lot of inspiration from Lone Survivor, an excellent indie survival horror game. Look Outside at first put more emphasis on maintaining/managing your home and your survival stats, and a lot of that had Lone Survivor vibes, but over time the survival mechanics took more of a back seat to the exploration aspect. I think thats' it for my answers!
JW:
When you finally get to the roof, we honestly thought it was the strongest reveal of any game in recent memory; it's so effectively spectacular, and the mood of the music is hauntingly almost "optimistic" in tone. There's a sense that this may be a terrifying end for much of humanity, but that there's this unavoidable grandeur to it.
When you finally get to the roof, we honestly thought it was the strongest reveal of any game in recent memory; it's so effectively spectacular, and the mood of the music is hauntingly almost "optimistic" in tone. There's a sense that this may be a terrifying end for much of humanity, but that there's this unavoidable grandeur to it.
FRANKIE:
Yes, the reveal of the roof was meant to look beautiful and majestic. in part because thats way more unexpected than a wasteland. We already have so many examples of how a post apocalyptic world plays out with our media, "oh so I guess this is mad max now," we wanted something where the future is way harder to imagine, like that 15 days was really one of those singularity moments where any prediction breaks down.
Yes, the reveal of the roof was meant to look beautiful and majestic. in part because thats way more unexpected than a wasteland. We already have so many examples of how a post apocalyptic world plays out with our media, "oh so I guess this is mad max now," we wanted something where the future is way harder to imagine, like that 15 days was really one of those singularity moments where any prediction breaks down.
JW:
Do you get asked about the "Denial Ending" a lot? I see people debating whether its events are all in Sam's imagination or not.
Do you get asked about the "Denial Ending" a lot? I see people debating whether its events are all in Sam's imagination or not.
FRANKIE:
This has been a contentious subject in the fandom, I dont want to weigh in on it. The ambiguity was not an accident. Part of the appeal is the idea that seeing the "bad ending" version is like a kind of cognitohazard that hurts your enjoyment of the "good ending" by introducing a horrible bit of doubt to it. That doesn't mean that doubt is correct necessarily, but its Very Unwelcome. You can imagine Denial ending sam having this doubt and it eating at him.
Though it's a bit unfortunate to see sometimes, I kind of like how touchy people get in defending the pure good ending interpretation. It feels appropriate.
This has been a contentious subject in the fandom, I dont want to weigh in on it. The ambiguity was not an accident. Part of the appeal is the idea that seeing the "bad ending" version is like a kind of cognitohazard that hurts your enjoyment of the "good ending" by introducing a horrible bit of doubt to it. That doesn't mean that doubt is correct necessarily, but its Very Unwelcome. You can imagine Denial ending sam having this doubt and it eating at him.
Though it's a bit unfortunate to see sometimes, I kind of like how touchy people get in defending the pure good ending interpretation. It feels appropriate.
JW:
I have to add, I like how sam feels a little like another blank slate everyman game character, but he does have his own feelings not decided by the player. It's just that he had such a mundane aimless life, the end of the world is now the thing he finally has Going For Him.
I have to add, I like how sam feels a little like another blank slate everyman game character, but he does have his own feelings not decided by the player. It's just that he had such a mundane aimless life, the end of the world is now the thing he finally has Going For Him.
FRANKIE:
Yeah, when you get different dialogue options, its up to you to decide if all of those options are things sam might actually say, or if they are just Player Options, or if some of them are more like stray or intrusive thoughts. Though there is of course one new moment where your choices are stripped away, which is kind of meant to play with this a bit.
Yeah, when you get different dialogue options, its up to you to decide if all of those options are things sam might actually say, or if they are just Player Options, or if some of them are more like stray or intrusive thoughts. Though there is of course one new moment where your choices are stripped away, which is kind of meant to play with this a bit.
JW:
Do you find yourself still thinking of more story to tell in this continuity, or do you feel it's all been wrapped up pretty neatly? The characters still stick with you and have more to say, or you've mostly switched gear into finishing up Malison or other projects?
Do you find yourself still thinking of more story to tell in this continuity, or do you feel it's all been wrapped up pretty neatly? The characters still stick with you and have more to say, or you've mostly switched gear into finishing up Malison or other projects?
FRANKIE:
I do have more stuff in mind yes, especially from things we cut, but I am trying to set these aside and move on, or repurpose those ideas for Malison content.
I do have more stuff in mind yes, especially from things we cut, but I am trying to set these aside and move on, or repurpose those ideas for Malison content.
JW:
Was Sam's potted plant always going to remain, against all odds, just a potted plant? I like how it doesn't build to anything fantastical and there's no big payoff. To me it feels meaningful, like a little beacon of normalcy.
Was Sam's potted plant always going to remain, against all odds, just a potted plant? I like how it doesn't build to anything fantastical and there's no big payoff. To me it feels meaningful, like a little beacon of normalcy.
FRANKIE:
At first, the idea was to have your interactions with the plant get goofy only if the player was lonely, and remain simple and short if you make friends, but as those survival variables became less and less important in the game, It lost that requirement to be just some funny thing that is up to the player to interpret. At one point there was a plan for the plant's mutation to lead to a more in-depth encounter too, but we just focused our work elsewhere, and for now the plant only connects to Hellen's quest.
At first, the idea was to have your interactions with the plant get goofy only if the player was lonely, and remain simple and short if you make friends, but as those survival variables became less and less important in the game, It lost that requirement to be just some funny thing that is up to the player to interpret. At one point there was a plan for the plant's mutation to lead to a more in-depth encounter too, but we just focused our work elsewhere, and for now the plant only connects to Hellen's quest.
JW:
If Look Outside existed as something other than a video game (literally anything from novels to muppet musicals, no rules) what would be your top pick format?
If Look Outside existed as something other than a video game (literally anything from novels to muppet musicals, no rules) what would be your top pick format?
FRANKIE:
A novel or a comic would be the most natural transitions I think. As for a more video kind of format, a live action series would work best probably - you can imagine all of the sub-stories of the game turning into an episodic format kind of story pretty naturally. The fact the entire story takes place in one building would also help with this kind of production.
A movie could also work, but that wouldn't fit the games' pacing as easily. It would need to take a very selective sample of moments and characters from the game to keep it from being a huge mess, a lot of characters would probably be fused together to simplify the cast, and a lot of story elements would be dumbed down or cut.
The priority there would be to deliver the games' tone and vibe instead of being accurate to any of its stories and characters, to have this feeling of empathy for your neighbors despite the horrors of what they've become, the odd mixture of superposed hopelessness and hopefulness etc.
One big issue with any kind of live action adaptation is, Look Outside has a very odd tone and the monsters tend to be absurd. I think it would be difficult to make this work in live action. The games' retro art style give it a lot of tonal leeway, makes a lot of grotesque designs work. Something about this art style makes you more willing to accept really absurd monsters and creatures, that might take you out of the story completely if it was a CGI creature or even a puppet or animatronic interacting with real humans. It would require very skilled concepts to manage to feel believable but still retain the absurdity of the original designs.
A novel or a comic would be the most natural transitions I think. As for a more video kind of format, a live action series would work best probably - you can imagine all of the sub-stories of the game turning into an episodic format kind of story pretty naturally. The fact the entire story takes place in one building would also help with this kind of production.
A movie could also work, but that wouldn't fit the games' pacing as easily. It would need to take a very selective sample of moments and characters from the game to keep it from being a huge mess, a lot of characters would probably be fused together to simplify the cast, and a lot of story elements would be dumbed down or cut.
The priority there would be to deliver the games' tone and vibe instead of being accurate to any of its stories and characters, to have this feeling of empathy for your neighbors despite the horrors of what they've become, the odd mixture of superposed hopelessness and hopefulness etc.
One big issue with any kind of live action adaptation is, Look Outside has a very odd tone and the monsters tend to be absurd. I think it would be difficult to make this work in live action. The games' retro art style give it a lot of tonal leeway, makes a lot of grotesque designs work. Something about this art style makes you more willing to accept really absurd monsters and creatures, that might take you out of the story completely if it was a CGI creature or even a puppet or animatronic interacting with real humans. It would require very skilled concepts to manage to feel believable but still retain the absurdity of the original designs.
JW:
An anonymous friend wants to know what animal Hellen would be in a talking animal or furry AU.
An anonymous friend wants to know what animal Hellen would be in a talking animal or furry AU.
FRANKIE:
I feel like a great white shark would be the most appropriate. You can imagine her Jason Vorhees theming just shifting a little sideways into Jaws. I can't really think of an animal that works with her funky eyeball carrousel situation though.
I feel like a great white shark would be the most appropriate. You can imagine her Jason Vorhees theming just shifting a little sideways into Jaws. I can't really think of an animal that works with her funky eyeball carrousel situation though.
JW:
What other games (or even films, etc) do you think fans of this one might possibly also enjoy? Something you might suggest to those who've truly exhausted it but still crave more of its vibe?
What other games (or even films, etc) do you think fans of this one might possibly also enjoy? Something you might suggest to those who've truly exhausted it but still crave more of its vibe?
FRANKIE:
That's tricky because it all depends on what exactly you liked about it. The game has bits and pieces of a lot of other games in it!
If one of your favorite parts of Look Outside is playing an RPG where your exploration leads to encountering strange characters that might join your party - One of my biggest game inspirations is Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. Classic CRPGs where you can meet a lot of colorful characters as you explore, two of which inspired Xaria and Monty from Look Outside. I love exploration-focused RPGs and I think the Baldur's Gate series is one of the best for this. Baldurs' Gate 1 has the most fun exploration of the two and makes you feel the scrappy beginnings of a tabletop campaign, but its quality is a bit more spotty, while Baldur's Gate 2 is the most well designed and polished by far, and has you experience a more advanced, mid to high level tabletop campaign with more powerful characters, but the exploration is a bit more simple, and is mainly around a large city. Baldur's Gate 3 is also excellent, and arguably has better writing than the original two games, but it has a smaller scope overall and the exploration aspect is a little weaker in my opinion. It might be much easier to get into nowadays though, so maybe inexperienced CRPG players should start with that one either way.
For another more recent example, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is a game obviously inspired by Baldur's Gate 1, and does a great job of giving you this exploration-focused RPG vibe. I haven't yet tried Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, but I heard it is much, much better than Kingmaker, so I am eager to give it a try soon.
If you enjoyed the way the game mixed survival horror with turn based RPGs, you might want to have a look at Sweet Home, an old RPG for the famicom that was the spiritual predecessor to the Resident Evil series. It is a huge point of inspiration for Malison and for Look Outside. You will need a strong stomach for janky NES-era RPG gameplay, but if you can adapt to it or if you have experience with that era of gaming already, this game might really surprise you with its depth and atmosphere. Alas classic RPG and survival horror is not a very common mix in gaming, so there are not many other examples to give here.
Parasite Eve could maybe hit those buttons for you, and it has grotesque body horror to boot.
My favorite book series is Terry Pratchett's Discworld, but I think you will see a lot more of that in Malison than in Look Outside - still I think it might be of interest to anyone who enjoyed LO. Favorite horror movie is Braindead, which might be your bag if you would enjoy a horror story with both horrifying gore and a very strange humorous, sometimes outright farcical tone.
That's tricky because it all depends on what exactly you liked about it. The game has bits and pieces of a lot of other games in it!
If one of your favorite parts of Look Outside is playing an RPG where your exploration leads to encountering strange characters that might join your party - One of my biggest game inspirations is Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. Classic CRPGs where you can meet a lot of colorful characters as you explore, two of which inspired Xaria and Monty from Look Outside. I love exploration-focused RPGs and I think the Baldur's Gate series is one of the best for this. Baldurs' Gate 1 has the most fun exploration of the two and makes you feel the scrappy beginnings of a tabletop campaign, but its quality is a bit more spotty, while Baldur's Gate 2 is the most well designed and polished by far, and has you experience a more advanced, mid to high level tabletop campaign with more powerful characters, but the exploration is a bit more simple, and is mainly around a large city. Baldur's Gate 3 is also excellent, and arguably has better writing than the original two games, but it has a smaller scope overall and the exploration aspect is a little weaker in my opinion. It might be much easier to get into nowadays though, so maybe inexperienced CRPG players should start with that one either way.
For another more recent example, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is a game obviously inspired by Baldur's Gate 1, and does a great job of giving you this exploration-focused RPG vibe. I haven't yet tried Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, but I heard it is much, much better than Kingmaker, so I am eager to give it a try soon.
If you enjoyed the way the game mixed survival horror with turn based RPGs, you might want to have a look at Sweet Home, an old RPG for the famicom that was the spiritual predecessor to the Resident Evil series. It is a huge point of inspiration for Malison and for Look Outside. You will need a strong stomach for janky NES-era RPG gameplay, but if you can adapt to it or if you have experience with that era of gaming already, this game might really surprise you with its depth and atmosphere. Alas classic RPG and survival horror is not a very common mix in gaming, so there are not many other examples to give here.
Sweet Home!
Parasite Eve could maybe hit those buttons for you, and it has grotesque body horror to boot.
My favorite book series is Terry Pratchett's Discworld, but I think you will see a lot more of that in Malison than in Look Outside - still I think it might be of interest to anyone who enjoyed LO. Favorite horror movie is Braindead, which might be your bag if you would enjoy a horror story with both horrifying gore and a very strange humorous, sometimes outright farcical tone.
The Sumatran Rat Monkey from Braindead (may even remind you of someone)
......That's it for our "Halloween Season" two-part interview, but this shouldn't be the last you Look Outside on bogleech.com. Thank Frankie for taking time out to answer so many questions for us, and be sure to check out the game itself if you still haven't!
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